Lance acusado de dopagem novamente!

pre_historico

New Member
O fignon, jalabert e o canibal acusaram positivo na altura em que corriam. O imbecil do hinault é que foi muito rapido a malhar no lance mas nao o vi a falar mal do jalabert que ainda ontem foi a mais recente vitima dos novos testes.
 

FiCaçador

Elos Rápidos
Acerca da recente entrevista do jornal francês Le Monde ao Armstrong.

O que ele disse na entrevista:
“It was impossible to win the Tour de France in my time without doping”

O título da entrevista:
"Le Tour de France ? Impossible de gagner sans dopage"

Estão a ver a diferença? Eu estou e não é pouca!
Já que se fala por aqui de atitudes vergonhosas e de não olhar a meios para atingir os fins, nesse aspecto o jornal Le Monde vai bem lançado...
 

FiCaçador

Elos Rápidos
Afinal não é só no ciclismo nem são só nos desportos que mais exigem resistência que existem casos de doping:
Atletismo: 4 velocistas apanhados com doping

Estamos a falar de velocistas, homens que correm 100m numa pista plana!
Tal como tenho dito, o ciclismo é um desporto como os outros, todos são humanos e chegando ao fim só um pode vencer. Não é por ter muita montanha ou por ter etapas muito longas ou por ter muitas etapas que algo seja diferente. As únicas diferenças são que é de longe mais controlado, com critérios bem mais apertados e os casos descobertos têm uma divulgação muito maior.
 

Jocas22

Active Member
Entrevista ao Rasmussen feita há uns dias atrás.

Naum: Michael, nowadays and for the last past years, everybody is asking, about what they see on cycling sport, if what they see is the truth and nothing but the truth about cycling. After 15 years of doping scandals and you name it, all these problems that cycling had, you know, we have again a new generation that is speaking again about clean cycling and there are a lot of people saying we don’t know what to think about it. What should we think about it.

Rasmussen: Well, I hope they can believe what they see, I do not want cycling to be in a situation where we once again have to rewrite history in five years from now. Em, and honestly I do believe that things are moving in a better direction now, but, to believe that doping has disappeared from cycling or from the sport in general would be very naive I think.

Everybody is wondering, why people, sport, athletes, cyclists mostly, dope themselves because everybody keeps saying that you can compete being clean. Is that the case.

Well you can, err, you can compete clean and you could do that also ten years ago. You could also finish a Tour de France clean, you just couldn’t win it.

Is it, like Lance Armstrong was saying, you cannot win the Tour de France if you are not putting your body some illegal substances.

Well if you look at history, there’s a lot of indications saying that Lance is right about that, I think its important to bear in mind that once the Tour de France was invented, so to speak, 110 years ago, it was a competition that it lasted for six days, and it did 2400km in six days. On old bikes, that are not even close to what we are riding on today, so instantly you had created a sports event that was attracting some very crazy people, and obviously those people, to do that, they had to do crazy things, and I think from there on it just developed and it became a culture, and it takes a long time to change a culture.

Eddy Merckx said after Lance Armstrongs statement about how can you win or not win the Tour, just said that "not everybody is like that, you can win the Tour without doping. " Merckx, five time winner, one of the biggest cyclists of all time in cycling according to many, who should we believe?

I think Lance is probably more on the mark than Merck is bearing in mind Merckx tested posted himself

That’s true, in 1968

So I’m leaning towards Lance in this matter say.

What is your personal history about that, about the culture, the cycling, how is it about you, was there just a certain moment you realised you cannot win big competitions without EPO for example?

Well its something that you just getting introduced to very slowly, nobody when they are. I wanted to be a cyclist since I was give years old, and obviously as a five year old or ten year old, whenever you start riding a bike, you have no desires to stick needles into your arm. Its a completely different drive you have at that point. And then after you have been doing all these of these sacrifices for a long long time, then you hit this culture that I was describing that has started 110 years ago, when people were doing crazy things like taking rat poison or riding on cognac, or whatever they did right. Then after the first world war they were taking stimulants, then after the second world war somebody invented steroids and they were taking that and so on. So its important to understand that EPO was not invented by Lance Armstrong or Michael Rasmussen, we just at a certain point in our career we were hitting that culture and being introduced to it, and that’s where you have to make the decision, say OK, do I want to keep moving in that direction that my career has been going all the time, or do I want to stop right here.

Its about stopping right there?

Well, do I want to stop the progress in my cycling career, I was winning championships, medals at the world championships when I was a junior, and riding very well.

You were clean that time?

Oh yes, absolutely, I was 100% clean, and I was clean when I was setting the all time record watt per kg in Denmark, but at a certain point it was just not enough any longer

And at what point did you realise that?

Well it, happened like when, basically just around the Festina scandal in 1998. I think that actually worked as publicity for doping than the opposite, because up till then it was kind of a secret society, but after that everything was exposed, and I think from there on it really spread to the entire world.

So, it wasn’t a good thing, all this scandal, because everybody said from now on, we discovered the evil of the sport, of cycling and now they wont do that again, it was the opposite?

I think for a lot of people it was, oh, is this the way it works, and I think really it was spreading, its like circles in the water from that point on. And it was, it has just been following the same development as it had in the previous hundred years.

And when you discover it, its just like demanding for it, or somebody else come and said this is the way you have to win, how does this kind of thing work?

Somebody, nobody has ever pushed me to do things, its always been my own free will, its just a simple desire to be the best and to be the best at all means.

What was the ERA of Lance Armstrong because you know its very difficult for us, in the beginning it was 98 Festina that really changed the face of, the looking at the people as to the cycling, the world of sport. And then we find out that in fact Lance Armstrong continued to do that thing, with the certain complicity of the International Organisation of Cycling, and of course, the other ones follow and so on and so on. How was that time, how was the ERA, because outside we are saying, now maybe they are cleaner than before, maybe we are going in the right direction, how was inside the world of cycling.

Inside, I think inside the world of cycling nothing really changed, like there were people, there were people taking drugs the same day that they were sending the Festina team home, erm, and people they did it the next day again, and the day after again, you cannot change the culture like that. Its like you want to turn a supertanker in a little lake, and before you manage to do that its going to hit the edges a few times, I think , and honestly I believe that lots of the journalists that had been covering the Tour for many many years they had been very well aware of these facts, but they just played along with the cyclists and the culture, and at a certain point everything was exposed, and at the same time the journalists themselves were exposed, as being so ignorant, in this case, and obviously its a lot easier for a journalist to change his standpoint 180 degrees than it is for an entire culture to turn around 180 degrees, it takes a lot of time to do that. But I am optimistic, and I believe that it is going in the right direction.

What is your perspective on Lance Armstrong, because you was riding with him, alongside him, he was like a boss on the peloton, he was really punishing the ones who were speaking against him or against doping, and afterwards he was exposed. But how were those times with Armstrong?

I still have a lot of respect for Lance Armstrong, what he did on the bike and what he did off the bike, I think Armstrong he did a lot of good things, he created a lot of publicity for cycling and he made an entire nation ride bikes up until Armstrong cycling was unknown in the United States, and if you look at the entire cycling community right now it has a long of Anglo Saxon influence, many of the big teams are based in the US, and there were none before Lance Armstrong. Of course he also has, there’s a dark side to that story as well, and I believe it was Bernard Hinault that said "to win the Tour de Trance you have to be a bastard" and Lance Armstrong was the biggest bastard of all of them.

He was really like, honestly I cannot share your point of view because I couldn’t have any respect for Lance Armstrong because he lied for so many years, but not only lying, he organised a kind of Mafia in the peloton. You and other guys were just doing that to yourselves, but it seems like Armstrong was doing that to all the people, around the planet, to be a believer and whoever wasn’t a believer had to be punished. Wasn’t that a really bad poison culture that cycling inherited after Armstrong?

Well there’s no doubt that he certainly took the whole threatening and intimidation part to another level, and that he was very close in it with the UCI, International Cycling Union, but as an athlete you cannot win the Tour de France seven times without being an extraordinary athlete, there’s no doubt about that. The guy he won the professional road championships in 93, when he was 21 years old, he was the youngest world champion.

Maybe he was under substances even then, I don’t know?

It could be, but nevertheless he beat a lot of the guys that were riding on the same premises [sic] so I really don't think he was cheating any of his competitors at that point. He was just the best.

How is the situation today, because maybe in the 90's we saw that all the riders were very strong. Now there seem to be strong riders, weak riders, some of the people will say even in the time of Armstrong, we discovered we was on the same types of substances that you were, or other people, there was nothing special about it, they said the American discovered something they put into Armstrongs blood, it wasn't the case. But now we see very strong riders like Chris Froome, what he did on Ax3 Domaines, and the ones who really cannot follow. What do you think of the situation today?

I think, like I said it is generally speaking, going in the right direction and the peloton is becoming gradually cleaner. But to say its entirely clean, that would be very naive. Obviously also, because of all the history of cycling, and the heritage that the riders riding nowadays are carrying around, there's, we have been putting ourselves in a situation where people they are almost entitled to point fingers at the winner which is a sad situation that instantly when you are winning you are becoming a suspect, because you never really know what number 2 has been doing, right, but its just as soon as you are winning you're, like you're a marked man.

But Chris Froome is so strong, I'm sorry, it reminds me of Lance Armstrong, really when I saw into Ax3 Domaines accepting that he’s not growing up on the bike, but otherwise it was so easy for him, like on a flat flat road.

He is riding very impressive, and I do not like to point fingers just because people are riding fast, but obviously he has got history against him, because he was riding faster on AX3 Domaines that Armstrong, Ullrich, Basso, Leipheimer, Landis, Mancebo, myself for that matter, and all these guys I just mentioned, they have a long history of drugs.

Maybe he’s trained better than you?

It could be, it could be that he is just the fastest man on the planet earth on a bike

But you don’t honestly believe that?

I will..

That it can be such good training that you could beat people that confessed they doped themselves, and be completely clean and beat them all?

I would love to, I would love to believe that.

I sense a hint of disbelief?

Well its just like I said, the history of cycling is against him.

What do you think of the new moralists, the guys who like David Millar say "Stop pointing the finger on Chris Froome and not charging him with our faults" Like today is a new day, a brand new day like Scarlet O'Hara

Yes, but like I Say, the cyclists of today are carrying the heritage of the rest of us from the past, and just before the Tour Contador was asked about doping and he said "well doping is something of the past" and I felt that I had to respond on that question and say "Yes, well if the past is the Giro d'Italia that ended a month and a half ago when Di Luca and Santambrogio tested positive for EPO, it is the past of course, but then yesterday is also the past"

So yes, we have to see what you really are saying in all that. What do you think about, a lot of people, acknowledging that we cannot clean the sport completely from doping, they say let them all be under the influence of illegal substances, make them legal, let them all dope and see who is the best. What do you think about that?

In the ideal world, obviously everybody arriving clean. Also we know that the sports world is not as ideal as it should be, just like, probably like the rest of society. What I think is important that you have rules, that are the same for everybody, and they are respected, both by the athletes, and by the people that are governing and enforcing the rules, so that everybody is treated the same. And if you cannot have a completely clean sport then at least its important that you have rules that are enforced, that are the same and easily understandable for all athletes. So not that some people they have 50 out of competition tests in a year and some of the competitors have none, and some of the athletes have biological passports and others they do not have, because that’s when you are creating different rules for different athletes.

So are you for doping, the larger scale for everybody or not?

No, absolutely not, but I'm certainly for equal rules for everybody. And equal possibilities, but no, no, I really don’t believe that anybody of a sound mind would say we should just liberate everything, that would be a very radical thought and nobody wants to do that.

What do you think about sports like Tennis and Football who says, Oh, doping is about cycling, we are OK, we are clean, we don’t have to dope ourselves as its not such a demanding sport, and there are not many controls, they are just treated lightly, what do you think about them?

Do you think well, the football guys, they never dope themselves?

Well I think history shows something else. And obviously if you have eleven guys running around and the feel that they can run full for 90 minutes, at the end of the day you will have a big advantage and they can run faster, they can jump higher, they are stronger, so even though you have other parameters such as technique and tactics, yes, doping would help there as well.

Have you seen some football teams that were strange to you, the way physically they behaved?

No, but I've just noticed how also in soccer, how things have changed. I also know that in soccer for example there’s a huge march in, of improvement just by training more, because compared to cyclists they have a completely different way of living and training, so just by training more they would be better athletes.

But L'Equipe said the doctor, doctor Fuentes, there was also football players, some tennis players, some athletes, all kinds of sports, so does that say another thing about those sports, but nobody wanted to come forward with these names?

Is this not the rules, the same rules for all the sports?

No, its true, and they did find 250 blood bags and only half of them were identified, for the cyclists, and it leaves you a little, perplexed about the situation, like why is this happening to cycling and why are other sports just going free. Obviously its very convenient for the other sports that cycling is the scapegoat, and to blame for all evil in sport. Honestly I do not believe that is the case, cycling has a lot of positive sides as well, but , you know, who knows what..

But it is crazy that the Spanish Justice decide not to test the blood samples, the blood bags and just destroy them, I mean, how can you believe something like that, how can it happen that something like that in our days, when you have all these doping programs?

yes, I’m certainly for equal rules for everybody, and that also goes in the judicial system that it should not depend whether you are soccer player, cyclist, Danish or Spanish how you are being treated by the judicial system.

Right, why did you came forward to, recognise the fact that you were taking illegal substances, specifically named, and everything after such a long time, and why now?

Well things had happened since last year, Tyler Hamilton he came out and talked about it, and the USADA and the whole investigation about Lance Armstrong. A certain point, until now my career is coming to an end, [lost audio very briefly] to restore the credibility its impossible to restore the credibility if you are not 100% open and transparent about this. What we are trying to do in Christina Watches now, Stefan Schumacher has admitted about his mistakes now, our sports director Bo Hamburger is collaborating with the anti doping authorities. He was riding at Casino and was a professional for ten years, we want to restore credibility in cycling and doing it by being, transparent really. Because, we just cant keep on going in this direction and I want to run a cycling team in a different way than what I have been part of with Rabobank and with other teams that I've been riding on, because its just, just not possible to live for that stress, I would not put myself through that.

Ok, but you know, the following question on everybody's mind is the same, why should we believe you, after all these years of lying in cycling society, of yourself and the others?

Well I think if you compare my situation I could easily have said, I could have denied, as I did in the past, I'm taking a very big step now, And I'm taking, like, I’m telling about the substances, I'm co-operating with the authorities, and I'm very well aware that I'm facing another suspension now for doing this, but I want to do that, because I want to for once have a clean sheet

Sorry, but one of your riders would say the same thing you said to yourself or others when you are at the top of your career, you will say to him don’t dope because its not fair, and he will say, but the other one takes substances, I will never be at a good level without taking them, what do you say to him?

What I'm telling him from my personal perspective is, I was smarter than the system, I cheated, I took doping for 13-14 years and I did it right underneath their nose. They never caught me. And nevertheless I'm still sitting here with second suspension because sooner or later the truth is coming out. Lance Armstrong took doping for more than a decade, he’s is now facing a lifetime suspension, he never tested positive, sooner or later, the truth is coming out and its coming up from behind and its putting its hand on your back, and, its believe me when I'm saying, its not a nice situation, its really terrible to be in this situation. Ask Floyd Landis and ask Tyler Hamilton, and for myself, I can tell that I have been going through a very bad patch in my life, its not funny to be in this situation, stigmatised, as a criminal, by society, and that’s what I’m trying to tell to the riders. I do understand the need for you to be faster, I do understand that you have the desire to ride faster, but don’t because you do not want to be in the situation that I have been in.

Were you not afraid for your life, when you take these substance, EPO for example which can stop your heart during your sleep?

No, like the whole health perspective is, its a completely different discussion, and the cyclists are not concerned about their health. Its, its a requirement to exercise, to do the sport in the first place, its not even a question mark. And when we are riding downhill with 80-100kph on tyres that are this thick, it does not really make sense to do that, just because you have 180grams of polystyrene on your head. Its not a matter of health, and it does not make any sense at all. It doesn’t make sense to do sprints at 70kph, and you have riders left and right and people are crashing, it does not make health to stop to Tour de France. If you consider Tour de France as a workplace, they would shut it down immediately, because you know when you start with 200 people within the next three weeks you have four broken collarbones, maybe a broken hip, you have people being hospitalised pretty much every day, and nobody in their sound mind would work in a place like that, of course, and nevertheless its the biggest annual sports event, and people do it year after year after year. So health is not an issue.
 

CarlosBerg

New Member
Pois bem acabou o Tour de France 2013, e também fiquei com a mesma opinião relativamente a Chris Froome, pode ate estar “inocente”, mas na verdade fez-me lembrar muitas vezes o Armstrong a subir, espero que não seja mais um caso falado daqui a uns anos, pois os tempos que ele conseguiu, estão ao nível de atletas que usaram substancia ilícitas para chegar lá, e ele (Chris Froome), superou-os!
 

rodda

New Member
pode ate estar “inocente”,
que eu saiba nos testes que fez não acusou nada, nem sequer existem processos a decorrer, mesmo que houvesse, seria sempre "inocente" até prova em contrário.
O que froome fez neste tour foi uma loucura, o homem subiu o Mt. Ventoux mais rápido que Pantani, Lance, Ulrich, e no CRI apenas foi superado pelo bi-campeão do mundo Tony Martin. Embora não goste muito do estilo de Froome, tenho de admitir que é o melhor e mais completo ciclista da actualidade.
 

FiCaçador

Elos Rápidos
O Chris Froome pode até estar inocente, tal como o Ronaldo, o Nadal, o Bolt, o Phelps, todos eles podem até estar inocentes.
Tanto quanto sei nunca nenhum destes atletas acusou positivo ou foi apanhado numa rede de doping, por isso tudo o que os pode relacionar com o uso de substâncias dopantes não passa de especulação, o que vale zero.
E tenho toda a certeza que dos atletas que mencionei o Froome é de longe o mais controlado.

Se ele em cima de uma bicicleta faz lembrar o Armstrong, ainda bem, pois o Armstrong em cima de uma bicicleta era fantástico.

O Rasmussen pelo que disse na entrevista não é parvo nenhum, e ele fala daquilo que uns já sabem e outros não querem ver, dentro do mundo desportivo o ciclismo foi escolhido como bode expiatório para o doping, apesar de ser igual a qualquer outro desporto nesse aspecto.
É mais ou menos como os bancos em Portugal, estão todos falidos mas o BPN é que foi escolhido para levar com as culpas todas para safar os outros.
 

TeZz

New Member
É mais ou menos como os bancos em Portugal, estão todos falidos mas o BPN é que foi escolhido para levar com as culpas todas para safar os outros.

apesar de a comparação não ser directamente lógica, e a discussão bancaria e económica portuguesa, dar pano para mangas e não ser de todo tão linear ou simplista como neste quote, a analogia relativamente ao assunto em debate .. é extremamente inteligente e no ponto.
 

texugo

New Member
Froome o super ciclista, desenvolvido á base de novas técnicas de treino, com apenas um suplemento ao pequeno almoço que não vai além de Nestum de chocolate, e um copo de leite com mel ao deitar...... só acredita quem quer....... e as médias é de 40kmh para cima....
 

TeZz

New Member
Froome o super ciclista, desenvolvido á base de novas técnicas de treino, com apenas um suplemento ao pequeno almoço que não vai além de Nestum de chocolate, e um copo de leite com mel ao deitar...... só acredita quem quer....... e as médias é de 40kmh para cima....


lol a inocência não tem limites amigo
 

Jocas22

Active Member
... é como a ingenuidade



quando ao caso em questão que cambada de incompetentes todos eles, Lance á cabeça, andavam a janar-se todos e afinal dava pra fazer melhor sem "suplementos" bastava levar a cama atrás pra cada hotel. "a yellow jersey that will stand the test of time", fez-me lembrar o anuncio da Nike do Lance em que ele era melhor porque pedalava de noite e á chuva.
 
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CanyonLuz

New Member
Logo aqui surge sempre a questão, até que ponto os campeões como nós os conhecemos de qualquer que seja o desporto não utiliza substâncias dopantes? São verdadeiros atletas ou existe sempre ++++ uma pequena ajuda química :confused:
 
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